DEBATE What are your thoughts on Celebrities Defending Islam?

no assumption.....I support the theory that has the most evidence...Show me the evidence that proves your theory...

 

Dude you are wrong......you can rant but you have no facts......you sound like a Trump supporter.

 

*walks in about to comment....turns around and leaves. Nope. Lol.

 

Almost did the same.. probably should have, but as they say "in for a penny... taxed by the pound!"

As I recall, the Renaissance came out of Florence, aided by the Medici family (rulers at the time) and the influx of Greek scholars fleeing the fall of Constantinople after it was taken over by the Turks. And yes, in some circles, the re-invention of a thing called "humanism" occurred during this period, derived from renewed interest in classical Greek Philosophy.

All of which kind of makes Alexis closer to being right than one would think.

 

Everything I've said can be independently verified. Feel free.

I do love how you make insane claims without evidence, but then demand citations from everyone else. Hypocrisy. Like a Hillary supporter.

 

There is no insane claims. You are a Trump supporter who regurgitates fake news. If you had facts you would show them. The fact that you lack the basic grasp of history.

 

And that's the problem, Islam needs a renaissance but one that is simply not achievable. The Quran is considered the literal word of God and anything question the world of God is blasphemy and subject to the harshest punishment. This is why Islam has survived for 1400 years and is 1.6 billion people strong right now. Islam, unlike other religions, is fundamentally fucked up and that which makes it very dangerous. One can't even willingly leave Islam, the punishment for Apostasy from Islam is death. Honestly, it can't even be classified as a religion, its more of a cult, originally lead by a warlord in the 7th century.

And "98% of muslims" go about their life only because most of them are economically poor and the fact that the west holds superior armies, currency and weapons tech. Reverse these roles and see what happens to the world.

 

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_1601_1650/how_islam_influenced_the_europea.htm

humaism really had little to do with it.

 

Yes, because the Islamic Research Foundation is an unbiased, credible source. LOL! Cite an actual historian or historical society, not one whose sole purpose is to promote their ideology.

And, frankly, saying "humanism had little to do with the Renaissance" is arguably the stupidest thing I've ever read on this forum. And that includes "lovely natural tits" in a Bella Thorne thread.

In any case, the renaissance I was originally referring to was the one that came to Christianity, not the the one that came to western civilization.

 

point1- so you can't refute the facts so you attack the source? you haven't brought any facts....
point2- saying it had little to do doesn't mean it had no impact at all. the renaissance was intertwined with the religious culture of the time.
point3-in any case it is stupid to talk about a christian renaissance when christianity was used as an excuse from some of the greatest evils in society.

so you are 0 for 3.

 

Centuries ago Europe sent thousands of men to the Middle East nominally to reclaim the holy city of Jerusalem for Christendom, but now the idea of wanting to do that is laughable because Jerusalem is no longer a holy city in the West. The Bible used to be just as much the literal word of God as the Quran is. All religions still contain hardliners in some positions of power, all that has really changed is that church has somewhat separated from state so that the church doesn't have the near-irresistible force of the state behind it. But they used to be intertwined, with royalty, church and state united (though ever jostling for power).

Also how do you reconcile believing that on the one hand they don't believe in any co-existence with other religions, but also that the only thing stopping them from rising up is being poor or militarily weaker than the West? If they were really so fervent about converting people wouldn't they feel the need to attack now anyway out of holy duty? The vast majority of the population of the world does seem to get by on just trying to lead a comfortable enough life raising their kids. The very same tiredness you feel after work is the same tiredness everyone else feels after work. Most people simply don't have the time and energy to cry bloody revolution and risk their lives and their family's lives.

 

We can debate the dark histories of various religion, but there's a problem within Islamic countries in present day.

I had one of my websites banned by the government of Pakistan, officially, via a government memo. Why? Because it had drawings of a religious figure on it... if you don't see something really fucked up about that, I don't know what to tell you. Islamic countries fundamentally do not believe in things like freedom of speech. That might not be an inherent problem with the religion, but it is a problem with its followers.

 

All religions are totally fucked up if you read the fine prints. No modern christian follows the bible word by word, and that is okay by modern Christians. There is also medieval shit in the bible but nobody follows it today.
In today's society:
It is okay to not follow the bible completely.
It is okay to question Christianity.
It is okay to leave Christianity.

But the koran is the literal word of god and muslims must follow all of it. There is no picking and choosing the good parts of the koran. A muslim must follow all of it. There in lies the problem. Just like the bible the koran also has medieval shit but unlike christians, muslims have to follow it even if they dont want to because in Islamic countries question the koran is blasphemy and blasphemy is a criminal offence.

It is blasphemous to not follow the koran completely in Islamic countries and it is a criminal offence.
It is blasphemous to question Islam and it is a criminal offence.
It is forbidden to leave Islam and the punishment is death according to Islam.

Every moderate muslim you know, every good guy muslim you know in USA does not follow the koran completely. He would be breaking the law if he were living in a Islamic country.

 

I really really really don't wanna comment on any of this but because I'm stupid I can't resist. For those equating Christianity with Islam or even Judaism you're way off. Yes in the OLD testament (which Jews still go by) the Jews of that time did do some very barbaric things. It wasn't until the NEW testament that Jesus changed all of that. He was the radical of His time who brought God to non-Jews (or gentiles), which also brought Him scorn from the Jewish leaders and eventually lead to His death. Jesus took almost every tradition from the Torah (Old Testament) and broke them. He associated with tax collectors, prostitutes, the lepers, the blind, the ones society forgot and he brought them front and center. He didn't associate with the Jewish hierarchy and actually called them out of many occasions which also made a lot of enemies for Him. Jesus was the first to have women as equals in His ministry and Jesus first appeared to a woman after His resurrection. Jesus taught turn the other cheek which was a far cry different than what the generations before lived by. Old Testament said eye for an eye. Jesus said turn the other cheek. That was and still is a radical idea today. Jesus never said to accumulate wealth or women or land or fame. He preached that we should live the servant life. Now yes I'll grant you that has been overlooked by some professed Christians.

Bottom line is this. I believe in Jesus Christ. That He lived and died and after three days was resurrected. Now if YOU don't believe that, that's absolutely perfectly fine with me. You'll never hear me try to convert you. Because one thing Jesus also taught was not to waste time on those who choose not to believe. There are many out there who do want to hear the story and those are the ones we should focus on. So if you Aren't a believer or believe something else, I say God bless.

 

My understanding is that there are Islamic scholars just as there are Biblical scholars, and both Islam and Christianity are still filtered through preachers/scholars who interpret that supposed literal word of God for the masses. And I don't think people follow the Koran completely either, despite the laws - just as people in Christian countries sinned and continue to sin, people in Muslim countries do too. People are people everywhere, I'd guess no-one follows it completely - the rules are difficult and everyone breaks them, especially the young!

 

1. I already did refute your claims. I've been doing that since the beginning. I'm also saying your source is not credible. It's an Islamic website dedicated to furthering the cause of Islam. It would be like looking for information about evolution on a Creationist website. It's just not the place you want to look. Try Wikipedia, since you clearly know nothing about the subject it would be a good place to start. Here, I'll even link you.

2. This is so vague a statement it's virtually useless. What do you mean "intertwined?" This weasel-wording only exposes your lack of familiarity with the topic. Humanism was the ideological backbone of the Renaissance. It's how civilization divested itself from dogma and superstition and bridged the gap of the Dark Ages. (Preserving the ancient texts is where Islamic scholars actually did help facilitate the Renaissance) As it pertains to percentages, you've got it completely backwards.

3. It is a non-sequitur to point to past crimes as evidence of a present guilt. Christianity today is not Christianity from the Middle Ages. Or even from two hundred years ago. It is subdued, and basically powerless on the world stage. Despite being the largest religion in the world, the phrase "Christian nation" almost certainly refers to a Western secular democracy. That isn't to say that Christianity willingly surrendered their influence; they didn't. Again, secularism and humanism were the driving forces. (Unless you want to idiotically give Islam the credit for that, too?)

So I'm batting .1000. You, on the other hand, have a lot of reading to do.

 

Are we really going to do the dueling references here?? You cite one, a somewhat biased source which, while it does explain some of the factors, is hardly neutral, nor does it even take the time to consider the possibility of a differing viewpoint (ie- in this case, mine). I wrote 128 pages of carefully researched thesis on the origins of the New Testament in 2011, and while my thoughts about the Renaissance are my own, my sources for forming those thoughts are quite readily available. Some of them are still in my bookcase. Here are just a few:

The Encyclopedia Britannica (Renaissance, 2008)
The European Renaissance: Centre and Peripheries- (P Burke, 1998)
The Civilization of the Renaissance in Italy (Burkhardt, translated by Joseph Middlemore, 1898)
The Encyclopedia of the Renaissance and Reformation (Bergin, Speake & Thomas, 2004)

And many more....

But I don't want to boast. I merely want to point out that no one (are you listening, Donald?) should ever rely on one single source for their information. It leads to the chance that the chosen source my simply be wrong, or worse, come with an agenda all its own.

(By the way, Al Jazeera, the source of your offering, doesn't even support all Muslims. It's often accused of being heavily biased against the Shia and being pro Sunni. It's also supported the Muslim Brotherhood, and Osama bin Laden (although in the case of bin Laden, it claimed that it was simply trying to give readers all sides of the story). In the end, while it may have some info to give, Al Jazeera can hardly be considered an academic source.)

Ok, back to the women. I've done my bit with this thread.

 

where are the mods when we need them ?

 

Why? Is someone picking on you?

 

It does seem that they're about tonight...